Armeno-Turkish Relations

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Armeno-Turkish Relations

Postby Armenian on Sat Feb 24, 2007 8:35 pm

In my opinion, there are three fundamental things we Armenians need to know about Turks:

1) Armenians want somethings from Turks that Turks will never give up on their own.

2) It is not in the national interest of Turkey to have a strong and prosperous Armenian neighbor.

3) Turks are simply Asiatic squatters in Anatolia, their national existance is temporary.


Based upon my experiences and observations, there are essentially three kinds of Turks with regards to Armenian issues:

The good Turk: This kind simply wants to 'whitewash' their role within the Armenian Genocide. This kind does apologize, but say we need to simply move on and forget about our lands and reparations - they claim too much time has passed.

The bad Turk: This kind claims it was just a nasty war and Armenians died because Armenians back stabbed Turks by siding with the Russians. And they go on to say - forget about your lands and reparations, it was war and you lost.

The Ugly Turk: This kind simply says they will do "it" again if need be and that - we should forget about any reparations and our lands.


The bottom line is: All self-respecting Turks, regardless of personality and ethics, want us Armenians to forget about what happened during the Armenian Genocide. They also want us to forget about our lost lands and they want us to give-up on any reparations. What's more, it is obvious that Turkey will never want a prosperous Armenia on her border.

However, we Armenians are not about to forget our historic lands, we are not about to forget our long over-due reparations and we will not forget that the blood of our martyred ancestors remain unavenged. All crimes need appropriate punishment. Thus, sooner or later, the Turk will be made to pay - one way or another.
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Postby Armenian on Sat Feb 24, 2007 8:38 pm

A typical dialouge a typical Armenian will have with a typical Turk:

A Turk will start by asking: What is the problem with your people regarding us Turks?

An Armenian is going to say: Turks persecuted their loyal Armenian subjects to the point of extinction within Anatolia.

The Turk is going to reply: No way, your people had a great life living under the progressive Ottoman Turks.

The Armenian is going to respond: There was a systematic genocide of the Armenian population within Anatolia and Cilicia by the Turkish authorities during the First World War.

The Turk is going to reply: There was a major war at the time and many people died on both sides. Turks suffered just as much as Armenians. So please, let's all move ahead in our lives. Besides which, that was so long ago...

The Armenian is going to respond: No. No. No. You are not being fair nor honest, a lot more Armenians died. What happened to Armenians back then was absolutely horrible, my grandparents still talk about it to this day.

The Turk is going to reply: Well, if Turks overreacted at the time, it's only because you Armenians were helping the Russians and stabbing us, benevolent Turks, in the back.

The Armenian is going to respond: Not all Armenians were helping the Russians, only a few nationalist revolutionaries who were seeking independence. Why did Turks kill or deport the entire Armenian population of Anatolia and Cilicia?

The Turk is going to reply: Well, you know what, I was not there. I don’t know what exactly happened. In any case, please allow me to say - I am very sorry all that stuff happened to your people. I am really-really sorry, but we Turks are different now, times are different now, let's move ahead in our lives, it will benefit us all.

The Armenian is going to respond: Yes, let's move ahead, but, it is essential that your government officially apologizes and begins to implement friendly policies toward the Armenian nation. Also, why is your government openly helping the Azeris against us? That problem in Nagorno Karabagh should have nothing to do with Armenia's relations with Turkey.

The Turk is going to reply: As far as the Nagorno Karabagh issue is concerned, we support the territorial integrity of all nations, including that of our cousins, the Azeris. Clearly, you Armenians are the aggressors there. However, I do not want to talk about that problem right now. Let's get back to 'our' issue. Turks will not officially apologize because they are afraid of land and money compensations. You have to understand that Turkey is not a rich nation and we are not about to butcher up our lands.

At this point, there are some Armenian low-lives who would reply: Very well, but please, even if it's some kind of a token recognition and compensation, it needs to be made in order to appease the masses who are still suffering from a post-traumatic conditions brought upon by the genocide.

And at this point, the Turk will get encouraged by the Armenian response and say: My government has similar problem with the Kurds and the Greek, thus, no such compensation can be acceptable for us Turks. Please people, accept our sincere apologies and lets move a head in life, we don't have another choice.

The same Armenian low-lives will respond: Well, ok, as long as we can be "good neighbors" and have no more problems, we will accept your apology and we'll live happily ever after.

And at this point, Armenian nationalists will tell Turks: Go to hell, you and your Azeri cousins, we will not rest until your nation is destroyed. After what happened between our nations, Turks and Armenians can never again live side-by-side. What's more, as long as the Turkish government holds our sacred lands, as long as the Turkish government supports our enemies, as long as the blood of our ancestors are not avenged somehow - there cannot even be any discussions regarding 'coexistence' between Turks and Armenians.

The point is, discussions about the Armenian Genocide with Turks are senseless exercises in futility. Such debates, more often than not, degenerate to the point that it only serves to undermine the national ideology and cohesiveness of us Armenians. Nevertheless, the fundamental answer of all self-respecting Armenians to every single Turkic inquiry regarding Turko-Armenian relations is a simple one: There was a historic crime perpetrated by Turks against the Armenian people that yet needs to be punished.

All crimes, regardless of severity, needs to get punished accordingly. That is how the universal order works, that is how rational works, that is how human behavior works. Through my experiences, I have noticed that there are two fundamental types of Turks regarding their ideological approach to the Armenian Genocide. The first type (most probably the majority): Is very satisfied with what happened to the Armenians during the First World War and, moreover, would not hesitate one bit at attempting it again (as we have seen on countless occasions during the past fifteen years). The other type (who is essentially subservient to the first type): Just wants to "whitewash" and make "excuses" for what happened back then and wants us to move "forward."

I far as I am concerned, its simple folks: We move forward by punishing, sooner or later, the guilty nation that committed the barbaric crime - and this cannot happen by trying to "reconcile" with those who still wish us dead. Speak to me about "reconciliation" with Turks when the Turkish state is reduced to rubble - then and only then will I even consider reconciliation with a Turk.

As I keep repeating: "well meaning" Turks need to preach to their primitive brethren - not us. I, personally, do not want engage in futile practices such as "explaining" and "convincing" anything to anyone that does not know the obvious. The bottom line is: just a few decades ago there was a large Armenian population living within its native lands and, today - there are none. Its that simple. Therefore, I do not want to engage in verbal gymnastics by discussing "why did it happen," "how did it happen," "what was the exact number of dead," "who was responsible," "how do we move forward..."
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Postby Armanen on Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:24 am

ARMENIAN-TURKISH RELATIONS DISCUSSED AT UK PARLIAMENT

armradio.am
22.02.2007 17:40

February 20 in the UK House of Commons the RA Ambassador to Great
Britain Vahe Gabrielyan met with members of both chambers of Parliament
and representatives of the British Armenian community.

RA MFA Press and Information Department informs that the meeting was
dedicated to two proposals to hold discussions on the blockade of
Armenia by Turkey and the Armenian Genocide in the British Parliament.

The suggestion to hold a discussion on the Armenian Genocide was
submitted by Conservative MP Bob Spink. Up to now the suggestion has
been supported by 68 Deputies. The proposal denouncing the blockade of
Armenia has been submitted by Laborite Nia Griffit. 66 MPs supported
the initiative.

In his speech Vahe Gabrielyan thanked members of the British Parliament
for their activity in the direction of recognition of the Armenian
Genocide and lifting of the blockade. The Ambassador thoroughly
presented Armenia's stances on the normalization of Armenian-Turkish
relations, urging on British MPs to make best use of their ties with
Turkey to help open the border and establish relations.
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Postby Ararat on Mon Mar 05, 2007 2:32 pm

The Britain by his ambassador in Armenia always promote this s*** about armeno-turkish dialogue. There cann't be any usefull dialogue with those who didn't even recognise their crimes of the past ( i am not even speaking about lands/retributions ... ) just verbal recognition

2) It is not in the national interest of Turkey to have a strong and prosperous Armenian neighbor.

3) Turks are simply Asiatic squatters in Anatolia, their national existance is temporary.


Yes there are temporar issue. They exist because some big forces in the West need them... I wiil open a thread about the Panturkism
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Postby Armenian on Sat Mar 10, 2007 6:24 am

Ararat wrote:The Britain by his ambassador in Armenia always promote this s*** about armeno-turkish dialogue.


It's not only England, the rest of the western world also wants us to have open relations with Turkey.

I think opening borders and establishing normal relations with Ankara is a long-term danger to the well being of the Armenian state. As far as I'm concerned, we need to place strong military forces on our eastern and western borders and continue concentrating on building our international trade via our northern and southern borders. And that is why our future is closely connected with that of Russia and Iran, we simply don't have another choice at this crucial stage of our national evolution.

There cann't be any usefull dialogue with those who didn't even recognise their crimes of the past ( i am not even speaking about lands/retributions ... ) just verbal recognition


Turks know that once they admit to the genocide they will be held responsible for it, for the word 'genocide' holds certain legal ramifications upon the international stage. They also know very well that Armenian nationalists like us don't really care about an 'apology' per say, we care about reparations and lands. Therefore, Turkey will never admit to a genocide - it's simply not in their national interests. If they knew that Armenians would forgive and forget they would have apologized long ago.

Ask yourself this question: After stealing our national wealth, after destroying 90% of our historic lands, after killing over two millions of our people - what good is their apology?

I don't want an apology - I want revenge in some form or another.

Yes there are temporar issue. They exist because some big forces in the West need them... I wiil open a thread about the Panturkism


Similar to Israel, Turkey is an artificial nation created by Western powers at the end of the First World War that will eventually collapse. And since Turks, much like Jews, are hated in the region, they have to maintain a constant militant stance for survival. As we all know, fortress nations can not survive long periods of time. Turkey has several serious problems that can potentially destroy it from within.

Therefore, we just need to be patient.
Մեր ժողովուրդն արանց հայրենասիրութեան այն է, ինչ որ մի մարմին' առանց հոգու:

Գարեգին Նժդեհ
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Postby Ararat on Fri Mar 30, 2007 2:10 pm

As usual Turks demonstrates their real attitude toward Armenian heritage

AtaTurks photo on the Akhtamar church and turkish flags on the island

Image

Image
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Postby Armenian on Wed Apr 11, 2007 10:00 pm

Image
Մեր ժողովուրդն արանց հայրենասիրութեան այն է, ինչ որ մի մարմին' առանց հոգու:

Գարեգին Նժդեհ
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Postby Lernakan on Fri Jul 13, 2007 8:34 pm

Neither Russia nor U.S. will help to open Armenian-Turkish border
11.07.2007 19:14 GMT+04:00

/PanARMENIAN.Net/ Neither Russia nor the U.S. will help to open the Armenian-Turkish border, Armenian President Robert Kocharian said in an interview with SPIEGEL ONLINE.

“Our relations with Turkey are not simple and they are even more complicated by the facts of our common history. The most reasonable thing to do would be to resume direct contacts. But there is no light at the end of the tunnel yet,” the Armenian President said.

The Armenian-Turkish border was closed in 1993 over the conflict in Nagorno Karabakh.

http://panarmenian.net/news/eng/?nid=22957
www.ArmenianHighland.com

Yes Tseghakron Em - Yev aha K'yerdnum Vahagni Achi Vrah Yerbek Chmexanchel Ukhtis Dem - Aprel, Gorcel u Mernel Vorpes Tsexamard.
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Postby Armanen on Sat Aug 11, 2007 6:40 am

Armenia-Turkey: Opportunities for economic cooperation Print

Friday , 10 August 2007


* View by HOVHANNES NIKOGHOSYAN*

When thinking over the opportunities for economic cooperation and
interaction between Armenia and Turkey in the event that the border is
opened, we need to pay special attention to the export structures of both
countries.

>From economic theory it is known that when a small and a big market
cooperate, preference is given to the former and it gains more. This is
called "the advantage of being small." Nevertheless it is obvious that,
though the reopening of the border is more profitable for Armenia in the
economic sense, Turkey will gain much more revenue in a political sense. Let's
first study the economic issues.

The agricultural sector holds a firm place in Turkey's export structure.
After the opening of the Turkish-Armenian border, the same sector of the
Armenian economy will also redirect to export on a much higher scale. But
these exports from Armenia will be in different denominations because they
will not be able to compete with Turkey when it comes to price (labor costs
are cheaper in Turkey). On the other hand, mainly because of the closed
border, Turkey's boundary regions are busy with small agricultural farms and
local crafts. In this area, for example, agricultural products from Armenia
will have a qualitative advantage.

In recent years Turkey's exports have included various electric devices
(including those from the IT sector) and a chemical industry, things that
have only been imported by Armenia on a small scale. In the event the border
is opened, the scale of this export will rise instantly because of the lower
prices. Armenian alcohol and tobacco production will find a market in
Turkey, and also through it to the European markets for a lower cost. This
"intervention" will create a competitive, "market" atmosphere in Turkey and
vice versa. Turkey's building materials industry is also highly developed
and will find Armenia ready to import. Despite popular opinion, there is no
fear in Armenia that an opening of the border will harm the local sector;
there will be a competitive environment between the two markets. For
example, during the early 1990s when Iranian markets "attacked" Armenia, the
latter competed with Iran shortly afterward.

The most important point is the opportunity for trade of power/energy
resources between Armenia and Turkey. In the event the Turkish-Armenian
border is opened, there will be an opportunity for Armenia to sell its
abundant electrical energy to Turkey. Armenia is currently capable of
producing over 1,000 MW more than its domestic need. Exporting this surplus
will bring the country around $190 million, according to current electricity
costs. It already sells to Georgia and Iran, but Turkey's eastern provinces
also have a need for electricity. It might also be possible in the future to
design some cooperative enterprises in which, for example, electricity comes
from Armenia and raw materials from Turkey.

For the Turkish economy, especially for the development of human resources
and increased income for people in the eastern regions (mainly populated
with those of Kurdish origin), there will be a flood of tourists from
Armenia and the diaspora.

There are a few steps that would be necessary to for the normalization of
economic relations and, more importantly, for creating the necessary trust
for those relations at any level. First, it is crucial to create a "special
economic zone" in the border areas for trade between the two countries for a
certain amount of time (such rumors stirred in late March but never came to
pass). It is assumed that such a measure would create the necessary basis
for a favorable atmosphere within the publics of the two nations. It is
necessary to mention that, since 1996 when communication between Yerevan and
Ankara was opened, the base for such an atmosphere has been created.

Another difficult question has to deal with the border regions of Armenia
and Turkey. In Turkey's eastern regions (Ardahan, Kars, etc.) there lives a
large Kurdish population, and undoubtedly the level of unemployment is
higher than in Armenia's border regions. However the living standards in
both areas are much lower than those provided by the average income of their
country's centers. Both countries have seen the populations of these regions
move to big cities in search of better lives and, more often than not, they
never return. To prevent the fatal influence of a probable large-scale
immigration of Turkish labor to Armenia's labor market (and vice versa), it
seems necessary to come up with some bilateral quota agreement on labor
migrants.

Indeed, such methods would lead to real normalization of bilateral relations
and would create a confidence that would serve as the basis for
intercultural dialogue. As far as economic benefits go, much seems possible
after the opening of the border. In the political sense, such a move would
reflect positively particularly when it comes to Turkey's international
image, including negotiations with EU and "strange" relations with Turkey's
ally the United States. And it is obvious that such benefits will work to
counterbalance short-term negative histories in relations with other states.
Thus this was? fair point of view from Yerevan and I hope for dialogue with
Turkey. After all we are neighbors and cannot afford to be strangers any
longer.

-----------------------------------------
* Managing editor of the Actual Policy journal
08.08.2007

Originally published in TZ
It's a custom of the human condition for the masses to remain ignorant. It's what they do. In fact, that IS how "the peace" is kept. Whatever democracy we have here is a spectator's sport.
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Postby Armanen on Sat Aug 11, 2007 7:00 pm

EXPIRED AND FALSE FOODS IMPORTED IN ARMENIA FROM TURKEY

arminfo
2007-08-10 18:24:00

False foodstuffs are imported in Armenia mainly from Turkey, Head of
the Consumers' Rights Protection public organization Abgar Yeghoyan
said at a Roundtable on the topic "Food safety problems and the main
ways to overcome them," Friday.

A. Yeghoyan said the monthly monitoring by the organization exposed
some violations in the Armenian food market. In particular, the
violations were connected with unmarked and expired products, false
foods and products having no certificates. The laboratory examinations
conducted by the organization revealed colibaccilus in 5 types of
imported products. Last year the Ministry of Agriculture amended the
Law on safety of foodstuffs. The parliament approved it in November
2006. Under the given law, the parliament approved an act providing
for confiscation and utilization of dangerous food and flavours from
the market.

The event organizer was the Consumers' Right Protection public
organization jointly with the World Bank program of assistance to
state agricultural reforms.
It's a custom of the human condition for the masses to remain ignorant. It's what they do. In fact, that IS how "the peace" is kept. Whatever democracy we have here is a spectator's sport.
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